Discussion:
[libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary
Bastián Díaz
2015-10-18 02:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

Reviewing future changes in LO 5.1, I learned that a menu styles are
included.
Loading Image...

It seems fantastic that decision, but revives my doubts about the
inclusion some time ago of a dropdown menu of basic styles in the
properties tab on the sidebar. What is its purpose or use cases?

I in most cases I turn to tab styles, and in the case of using the
dropdown menu, go to "more styles" recursively. As an element in the
toolbar seemed interesting and useful, but now I do not see it
necessary. If a adds style menu, I see this redundant feature.

A user can open styles from a keyboard shortcut, go to the tab styles
and use menu styles. For me the choice of styles in the property tabs is
unnecessary, in addition to providing a poor experience.

You could consider deleting to 5.1?

Cheers
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Cor Nouws
2015-10-18 08:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,
Post by Bastián Díaz
It seems fantastic that decision, but revives my doubts about the
inclusion some time ago of a dropdown menu of basic styles in the
properties tab on the sidebar. What is its purpose or use cases?
Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
the side bar you can chose (at least):
- show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
and (maybe):
- allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
style list...

Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.

Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
"- Properties" to "- Formatting",
the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new 'separator'
"- Properties".

This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
changing.

(Additional notes
- the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
"Apply style" list.
- would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
accessed with Ctrl+F11. )

Ideas?

Cheers - Cor

NB Thanks for asking Bastián, was on my mind already a long time that I
wanted to work on clearer ideas for this subject. Now thanks to the
meeting yesterday and your question it just happened :)
PS I know there is an issue for this. But I'm a sort of finishing stuff
before a week holiday. So leave the idea here.)
--
Cor Nouws
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Cor Nouws
2015-10-18 09:13:51 UTC
Permalink
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended,...
I've added a rough mockup here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18_dRi2x5e9VHILAJ7GKFCfbgidf5MHGtRuOsnGBt5Ao/edit#
(sorry if I'd better used another place.)

Cheers,
Cor
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Cor Nouws
2015-10-18 10:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor Nouws
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended,...
I've added a rough mockup here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18_dRi2x5e9VHILAJ7GKFCfbgidf5MHGtRuOsnGBt5Ao/edit#
(sorry if I'd better used another place.)
Ah, and an issue could be added here..
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90646
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Cor Nouws
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Bastián Díaz
2015-10-18 14:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor Nouws
Hi all,
Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
- show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
- allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
style list...
It looks very interesting, but again I think you try to add a new way of
"apply styles". So I think I would support redundant and improve the
current tab of styles and formatting on the sidebar.

On the other hand, I do not dismiss the idea. You can use improved
drop-down menu in the toolbar (perhaps a new toolbar styles) or include
it in a mad idea of single toolbar, google docs-style.
Post by Cor Nouws
Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.
Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
"- Properties" to "- Formatting",
the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new
'separator'
"- Properties".
It seems that mine may be a false impression, but with the use of IT
sidebar, relate the "Properties" tab with "direct formatting" contrary
to the tabs "Styles and Formatting" with ... styles.
I would not want it to break.
Post by Cor Nouws
This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
changing.
Right, but the sidebar has a different workflow. Not always visible and
also the same tab, the contents of the sidebar can be hidden. For these
cases kept the formatting toolbar, but it is better to renew the
sidebar.

See: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94427
Post by Cor Nouws
(Additional notes
- the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
"Apply style" list.
ditto. If that's your approach, you might want an improvement in the
toolbar. docs google toolbar for LibreOffice.
Post by Cor Nouws
- would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
accessed with Ctrl+F11. )
Ideas?
I bet to keep the properties tab with direct formatting options (tell me
if this notion is wrong) and improve the workflow tab of Styles and
Formatting.
Add styles control in the properties tab is redundant and does not seem
a good idea to improve it.
I have the same sense of purpose regarding the drop-down menu in the
toolbar, but I only used as "indicator" style currently used ... nothing
more.

ideas Styles and Formatting sidebar:
- Add changed styles in the list of custom styles.

If I take a default style and make modifications for use in the
document, it is not considered in the list of custom styles.
I usually use show Custom Styles to have the complete list of styles
that will use the document (applied or not), but the default styles that
have been modified not listed (so I think new styles for all).
Post by Cor Nouws
Cheers - Cor
NB Thanks for asking Bastián, was on my mind already a long time that I
wanted to work on clearer ideas for this subject. Now thanks to the
meeting yesterday and your question it just happened :)
PS I know there is an issue for this. But I'm a sort of finishing stuff
before a week holiday. So leave the idea here.)
--
Cor Nouws
Thanks for your attention
--
Bastián Díaz
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Cor Nouws
2015-11-10 14:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bastián, all,
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Cor Nouws
Incidentally I thought about this control this morning (we looked at it
at a NL_LibreOffice meeting yesterday).
I like the current improvement and think it can be extended, so that in
- show (thus edit) properties of style or text as displayed.
- allow choosing paragraph or character styles (or all styles) with the
little icons, as in the styles and formatting panel..
and when we are that far ... also choose between style properties and
style list...
It looks very interesting, but again I think you try to add a new way of
"apply styles". So I think I would support redundant and improve the
current tab of styles and formatting on the sidebar.
If you talk redundancy, that could also be an argument to not at all
have "Apply style" on the properties panel?
Post by Bastián Díaz
On the other hand, I do not dismiss the idea. You can use improved
drop-down menu in the toolbar (perhaps a new toolbar styles) or include
it in a mad idea of single toolbar, google docs-style.
IMO the drop down "Apply Style" in the Formatting tool bar already is great.
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Cor Nouws
Of course then we need more vertical space (extra controls above the
styles drop down, and a separator below + an indicator showing: edit
style properties / edit text (direct) formatting or somesuch.
Then the whole panel could maybe renamed from
"- Properties" to "- Formatting",
the upper sub panel "- Styles" and the next one (below a new 'separator'
"- Properties".
It seems that mine may be a false impression, but with the use of IT
sidebar, relate the "Properties" tab with "direct formatting" contrary
to the tabs "Styles and Formatting" with ... styles.
I would not want it to break.
That is part of the discussion: as we do want to improve the use of
styles, then offer them handsome in the Side Bar. Hence they appeared on
the panel Properties in the first place.
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Cor Nouws
This would improve working with styles. You see immediately what you're
changing.
Right, but the sidebar has a different workflow. Not always visible and
also the same tab, the contents of the sidebar can be hidden. For these
cases kept the formatting toolbar, but it is better to renew the sidebar.
See: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94427
I see little relation - but that may change if I understand the idea better.
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Cor Nouws
(Additional notes
- the only reason I have a toolbar active, is that I can see/use the
"Apply style" list.
ditto. If that's your approach, you might want an improvement in the
toolbar. docs google toolbar for LibreOffice.
Post by Cor Nouws
- would be great if that control in side bar could (eventually) also be
accessed with Ctrl+F11. )
Ideas?
[...]
Cheers - Cor
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Cor Nouws
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-10 15:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor Nouws
If you talk redundancy, that could also be an argument to not at all
have "Apply style" on the properties panel?
Sure. The idea is to improve the panel of styles and formatting, and not
add another way to apply styles to the properties panel - which seems to
have - another goal.
So for me, it would be better to remove "Applying Styles" on the
properties panel.
Post by Cor Nouws
IMO the drop down "Apply Style" in the Formatting tool bar already is great.
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
Post by Cor Nouws
That is part of the discussion: as we do want to improve the use of
styles, then offer them handsome in the Side Bar. Hence they appeared on
the panel Properties in the first place.
I understand, but I think is not the best approach.
Post by Cor Nouws
I see little relation - but that may change if I understand the idea better.
I can hardly explain it better, but work is closely related as the
selection in slide pane in Impress.
No visual difference when you select and apply a style, that comes to
confuse and really see if a style is applied. It's just a small way of
improvement.

Cheers

---
Bastián Dïaz
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Pedro Rosmaninho
2015-11-10 15:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastián Díaz
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​
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Pedro Rosmaninho
2015-11-10 15:41:28 UTC
Permalink
If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
your if you're a contributor.
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
Post by Bastián Díaz
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-10 16:43:45 UTC
Permalink
@Pedro
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
your if you're a contributor.
Please we contribute to the discussion. If you read my arguments, I know
beyond liking or not liking that option.
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
Post by Bastián Díaz
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not
in the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar >>like google-docs.
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the
Sidebar. I give strong preference to the Sidebar >because it uses space
in my 16:9 displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't
presume that your >way is the best just because you use more and then
want to remove all other options.​
Again, if you read my arguments, you would know that:

- I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem
desirable to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer
documents.
Therefore, I am in favor of improving the panel "Styles and Formatting"
and not additionally add a dropdown menu to apply styles in the
properties panel. (Redundant also considering adding a menu of styles in
version 5.1).

- I never mention use many toolbars, on the contrary I propose a single
tool bar, similar to that used in google-docs. In that context a
dropdown menu would be useful. The other tools appear depending on the
context of use in the sidebar.

- The current functions of styles in the properties panel seem limited.
If you use styles actively, always you end up using the panel "Styles
and Formatting". Should continue developing, we have the same functions
in two different sections of the sidebar (property panel and panel
styles and formatting), which to me seems inconvenient.
Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two different
sections of the sidebar (property panel and styles and formatting
panel), which to me seems inconvenient.

See:
Loading Image...

@Pedro What do you think about that?

Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian
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Cor Nouws
2015-11-10 19:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bastián, Pedro, *,

I like this discussion :)
Post by Bastián Díaz
- I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem
desirable to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer documents.
So since people that know the joyful power of styles do not want to keep
that for themselves, the idea was born to make styles more prominently
visible in the Side Bar.
I agree that the added drop down in the panel Properties is semi
optimal. Hence I came with a proposal to improve that.
And indeed, that might end up in making the current Styles and
Formatting (S&F) in the side bare redundant :)
I think in my trial there are also neat advantages that the current S&F
does not offer.
So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S&F panel, or the other way round..
In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)

Cheers - Cor
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Joel Madero
2015-11-10 19:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,l
Post by Cor Nouws
So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S&F panel, or the other way round..
In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)
Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on *exactly*
this point. The question should be both "how do we efficiently let current
'power users' use styles" *and* "how do we inform current users about the
power of styles - most notably, by making it as visible as possible."

Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.


Best,
Joel
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-10 20:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Madero
Hi All,l
Post by Cor Nouws
So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S&F panel, or the other way round..
In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)
Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on
exactly this point. The question should be both "how do we efficiently
let current 'power users' use styles" AND "how do we inform current
users about the power of styles - most notably, by making it as visible
as possible."
Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.
Best,
Joel
I was coming to a similar conclusion.

I love the styles and formatting. I use it everyday and I would like the
default panel in the sidebar (direct formatting could go in the toolbar,
along with its own panel).

My question is:
Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and
formatting?

proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles and
formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles,
applied styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, the
paragraph and character styles.

In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown
menu, based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.

Use Case:
An advanced user to create specific styles for a document beforehand,
creating a template or a particular document. All paragraph and
character styles are available at a glance, easy to customize or create
styles for your document. Begin to write your document, you will have a
quick way to apply styles via the dropdown menu. As the user created
their styles of early, can Select the category "Custom Styles" and only
see the styles created for that document. At the same time, the user
have the other visible styles should create new or modify them.

This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.

Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian
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Steve Edmonds
2015-11-10 22:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Joel Madero
Hi All,l
Post by Cor Nouws
So either we improve current style dropdown in panel Properties
considerably, maybe ending up removing S&F panel, or the other way round..
In any case: the better and more visible the use of styles, the more I
applaud the solution :)
Here here! I love the discussion and think that it should focus on
exactly this point. The question should be both "how do we
efficiently let current 'power users' use styles" AND "how do we
inform current users about the power of styles - most notably, by
making it as visible as possible."
Keep up the great work. Thanks a million for all of your
dedication/thoughtful suggestions.
Best,
Joel
I was coming to a similar conclusion.
I love the styles and formatting. I use it everyday and I would like
the default panel in the sidebar (direct formatting could go in the
toolbar, along with its own panel).
Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and
formatting?
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles
and formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles,
applied styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed,
the paragraph and character styles.
In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown
menu, based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.
An advanced user to create specific styles for a document beforehand,
creating a template or a particular document. All paragraph and
character styles are available at a glance, easy to customize or
create styles for your document. Begin to write your document, you
will have a quick way to apply styles via the dropdown menu. As the
user created their styles of early, can Select the category "Custom
Styles" and only see the styles created for that document. At the same
time, the user have the other visible styles should create new or
modify them.
This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.
Cheers
---
Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian
As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds
the style used in re-styling a document and it is very quick to access
during document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't fit the
side bar and having the panel open all the time in 3 documents
obliterates the text I am trying to work on.
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Joel Madero
2015-11-10 23:06:24 UTC
Permalink
As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds the
style used in re-styling a document and it is very quick to access during
document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't fit the side bar and
having the panel open all the time in 3 documents obliterates the text I am
trying to work on.
Honestly - we can't cover every single corner case....The UX team is
responsible for thinking about the general needs of our users, corner cases
(not saying yours definitely is) should be given the *option* to include
things but we shouldn't force a million defaults on everyone just because
certain users use LibreOffice in a very specific case (such as having three
documents side by side open at a time....)

That being said, I leave this to the design/UX team to figure out.

Best,
Joel
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LibreOffice QA Volunteer
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-11 00:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Madero
Post by Steve Edmonds
As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down holds
the style used in re-styling a document >>and it is very quick to
access during document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I can't
fit the side bar and >>having the panel open all the time in 3
documents obliterates the text I am trying to work on.
Honestly - we can't cover every single corner case....The UX team is
responsible for thinking about the general needs of our users, corner cases
(not saying yours definitely is) should be given the *option* to include
things but we shouldn't force a million defaults on everyone just because
certain users use LibreOffice in a very specific case (such as having three
documents side by side open at a time....)
That being said, I leave this to the design/UX team to figure out.
@steve

I agree with Joel, I think the design team must choose a way to work
with LO. Anyway, there's always space for personalization, and your
case, you can disable the sidebar and customize toolbars.

I think the current way of LibreOffice is the sidebar. We must take into
account that most of the monitors used by the users have a 16: 9
ratioalso 3 major OS can use "workspaces" or other form of multitasking.


I leave here the image of the mockup to which I referred:
https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=115020

Cheers

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Steve Edmonds
2015-11-11 07:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastián Díaz
Post by Joel Madero
Post by Steve Edmonds
As long as you don't remove it from the tool bar. The drop down
holds the style used in re-styling a document >>and it is very quick
to access during document processing, 2 clicks. In my use case I
can't fit the side bar and >>having the panel open all the time in 3
documents obliterates the text I am trying to work on.
Honestly - we can't cover every single corner case....The UX team is
responsible for thinking about the general needs of our users, corner cases
(not saying yours definitely is) should be given the *option* to include
things but we shouldn't force a million defaults on everyone just because
certain users use LibreOffice in a very specific case (such as having three
documents side by side open at a time....)
That being said, I leave this to the design/UX team to figure out.
@steve
I agree with Joel, I think the design team must choose a way to work
with LO. Anyway, there's always space for personalization, and your
case, you can disable the sidebar and customize toolbars.
I think the current way of LibreOffice is the sidebar. We must take
into account that most of the monitors used by the users have a 16: 9
ratioalso 3 major OS can use "workspaces" or other form of multitasking.
https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=115020
Cheers
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Bastián Díaz
https://telegram.me/diazbastian
I am happy for any change as long as customisation is possible, and a
valuable feature is not removed but tucked away for power users, like
the print directly still being instantly available as a right click and
not on the tool bar.
I think your proposals are great for the new comer to LO, the more
people that get started the better, especially with styles. But for
people who need to get through the work (6-8 hours a day in LO) every
click or scroll is a disadvantage. I think your mock up is great for new
users, but for me I know the name of the style I want, I don't have to
see it visually, and the more styles shown at a time without scrolling
the better (similar to present). I have a document with over 250 styles
in it and could dearly do with some style management tools to simplify
things without it turning into a real chore.
If less styles are shown then preferred ranking is by most used at the
top, or shortcut keys (alt-a to altz etc.) to pick a style without
scrolling.
Steve
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-11 22:56:57 UTC
Permalink
But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
drop-down and easier to see the different >Styles (although it
constantly crashes in my install of 5.0).
The latter is quite true since the last update. Does anyone know if it
is a known bug?
Several elements of the sidebar freeze or crash.

Fedora 23 64bit
gnome 2.16.1
Version: 5.0.3.2 (5.0.3.2-4.fc23)

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Cor Nouws
2015-11-18 15:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bastián Díaz
But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
drop-down and easier to see the different >Styles (although it
constantly crashes in my install of 5.0).
The latter is quite true since the last update. Does anyone know if it
is a known bug?
Several elements of the sidebar freeze or crash.
For styles we have
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94495
(fixed in 5.0.3)

And a more generic query:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?f1=short_desc&f2=short_desc&j_top=OR&list_id=572493&product=LibreOffice&query_format=advanced&short_desc=side%20bar%20crash&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr
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Steve Edmonds
2015-11-10 17:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
Post by Bastián Díaz
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​
I am the opposite, I never use the side bar in Writer, it uses up too
much width. The work I do requires 2 or 3 open documents side by side
(dual monitors doesn't work) and they won't fit with a side bar. I also
use styles extensively and need access without side bar.
Steve
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Yousuf 'Jay' Philips
2015-11-11 10:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bastian,
Post by Bastián Díaz
Hello,
Reviewing future changes in LO 5.1, I learned that a menu styles are
included. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/f/fa/Styles-menu.png
Yes that is one of my changes in 5.1 and it contains a static list a
basic paragraph and character styles to help promote the use/awareness
of styles.
Post by Bastián Díaz
It seems fantastic that decision, but revives my doubts about the
inclusion some time ago of a dropdown menu of basic styles in the
properties tab on the sidebar. What is its purpose or use cases?
The style drop down found in the formatting toolbar was added to the
properties tab of the sidebar in writer in 5.0. The drop down lists
applied styles in a document and is important for users who prefer to
use the sidebar over the contextual toolbars.
Post by Bastián Díaz
I in most cases I turn to tab styles, and in the case of using the
dropdown menu, go to "more styles" recursively. As an element in the
toolbar seemed interesting and useful, but now I do not see it
necessary. If a adds style menu, I see this redundant feature.
For a toolbar user, the entire properties tab of the sidebar would be
redundant and not just the style drop down menu. For a sidebar user, the
addition of the style drop down allows them to finally hide the
formatting and other contextual toolbars without any problems.
Post by Bastián Díaz
A user can open styles from a keyboard shortcut, go to the tab styles
and use menu styles. For me the choice of styles in the property tabs is
unnecessary, in addition to providing a poor experience.
Keyboard shortcuts, styles & formatting, and the new Styles menu are
features focused on advanced users. For regular users, the style drop
down menu in the toolbar or sidebar would be their primary activation of
styles.
Post by Bastián Díaz
You could consider deleting to 5.1?
It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.

Regards,
Yousuf 'Jay' Philips
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Bastián Díaz
2015-11-11 12:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf 'Jay' Philips
Post by Bastián Díaz
You could consider deleting to 5.1?
It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.
It seems that with those words, does not give rise to any discussion.


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Pedro Rosmaninho
2015-11-11 19:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
your if you're a contributor.
Please we contribute to the discussion. If you read my arguments, I know
beyond liking or not liking that option.
I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
Post by Bastián Díaz
the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar >>like google-docs.
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
give strong preference to the Sidebar >because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your >way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​
- I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem desirable
to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer documents.
Therefore, I am in favor of improving the panel "Styles and Formatting"
and not additionally add a dropdown menu to apply styles in the properties
panel. (Redundant also considering adding a menu of styles in version 5.1).
- I never mention use many toolbars, on the contrary I propose a single
tool bar, similar to that used in google-docs. In that context a dropdown
menu would be useful. The other tools appear depending on the context of
use in the sidebar.
- The current functions of styles in the properties panel seem limited. If
you use styles actively, always you end up using the panel "Styles and
Formatting". Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two
different sections of the sidebar (property panel and panel styles and
formatting), which to me seems inconvenient.
Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two different
sections of the sidebar (property panel and styles and formatting panel),
which to me seems inconvenient.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Styles-menu.png
@Pedro What do you think about that?
​It seems that our opinions match strongly except on this matter. For me
the optimal default UI of LO would be one where the main modules have just
one single toolbar and everything else located in the Sidebar. This is
easily accomplishable in Writer already. Impress is already there! :)
Calc needs a bit more work.

As for the Styles Menu I think it improves the flexibility of LO allowing
people to use the menu instead​. Optimal for power users.

After reading your proposal further down, I must say I agree with you.
There's already Styles and Formatting and that tab of the Sidebar should be
improved.
But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
drop-down and easier to see the different Styles (although it constantly
crashes in my install of 5.0).

_________________________________________________

My question is:
*Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and formatting?*

proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles and
formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles, applied
styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, the
paragraph and character styles.

In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown menu,
based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.

This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.
________________________________________________

I love this idea.
The Styles and Formatting panel in the Sidebar looks and behaves very
differently from the rest of the panels. The icons for the different
categories in the Tango icon set also don't help.

I would organize those categories as the categories are organized in the
Properties tab converting the current UI to dropdown menus as in the
Properties for the different categories.
This would make the UX similar between the Properties panel and Styles and
Formatting panel.

As for what Yousuf wrote, I think he means that this discussion won't give
results for 5.1 because there's a lot of other stuff being worked on.
This item should definitely be included for 5.2.

For more people to use the Styles and Formatting the UI must be clearer and
similar to the Properties panel.
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
Post by Pedro Rosmaninho
You could consider deleting to 5.1?
It is something that will be staying in the properties tab.
It seems that with those words, does not give rise to any discussion.
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